Do forums matter?

[Dr Strangelove]

http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/30/...e-forum-tiger/

I found an interesting article on the value of forums to MMOs, and how to manage them. It's worth a read, especially considering that Anet opted against having official forums at all, instead relying on fansites.

Also, do you think Inde plays this game with our posts?

The early AC/AC2 forum moderators at Turbine had a drinking game they’d play sometimes when reading forums late in the evening: drink a shot for anybody who says “slap in the face”, chug if someone says their guild is quitting, and if somebody predicts the game will be dead in a month, the whole room has to drink. I’m sure versions of this game exist at many companies.

Discuss.

[Inde]

AC and AC2 didn't have official forums either though.

EDIT: I should say they didn't USE to. I think Asheron's Call now does. In the beginning, The Vault or Warcry was the major AC go-to place. AC2 is defunct and relied on fan forums as well. AC2HQ and FallenKingdoms. LONG LIVE ASHERON'S CALL.

[Kattar]

I doubt the forums really matter. Although they may matter a little more in GW since there are no GM's in game. So fan forums are the only place for people to air their complaints, which they do with little restraint.

It would be cool to see what would have happened, update-wise, if the GW fan forums didn't exist. Just to see how different it would be from the game we have now.

[R.Shayne]

I was directed here to find a solution for a problem by an ANET employee. That tells me that ANET does read these forums.

[Esan]

The forums are Anet's perennial ass covering mechanism. Instead of responding to complaints, they send players to a support group of other players. Occasionally they mash the "Release Gaile Gray" button to lend the support group some trappings of legitimacy, but on the whole the fansites exist to keep the players out of Anet's hair.

[poasiods]

The Dervs actually read these forums. Find a bug, post it here, and you may find it fixed on the next update.

[I pwnd U]

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

I was directed here to find a solution for a problem by an ANET employee. That tells me that ANET does read these forums.

Or it was ANet was too lazy to actually answer the question so they sent you here. Or it was a common question that was better explained here. The latter would indicate they do read the forums. The former would indicate laziness.

[Zahr Dalsk]

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

"The early AC/AC2 forum moderators at Turbine had a drinking game they’d play sometimes when reading forums late in the evening: drink a shot for anybody who says “slap in the face”, chug if someone says their guild is quitting, and if somebody predicts the game will be dead in a month, the whole room has to drink. I’m sure versions of this game exist at many companies."


Discuss.

They probably died of alcohol poisoning >.>

[bigtime102]

Of course forums matter, they ruin every single game thats allowed themselves to]... just look, how else did the Devse end up catering to a couple dozen people who play PVP with all their PVP skill balances? Thanks to the forums. Because without the forums Anet might have to rely on real data and analysis to gauge their community instead they've bought into the fact that a couple dozen people pvp'ing is worth fixing the game for. Wow must be some business model I dont know about, how do you guys make your money of a minority? Please dont let me stop you. Common PVP the pinacle of this game that needs so much attention when only a couple dozen people are playing RA the most populated PVP mode there is? WTF??? Without the forums maybe Anet would realize its not worth their resources catering to a couple dozen people who PVP and ingnoring the thousands who PVE. Only the forums are to blame for this mistake. So yes forums matter. They've ruined Guild Wars now and for the future.

EDIT:

NEVERMIND!! ITs pvp weekend theres 7 yes seven full districts of PVP action, HURRY ANET BALANCE THE GAME STOP GW2 theres more than 100 people PVP'ing!!! 7 districts!! PACKED

[Darkobra]

That game sounds amazing. I'm going to take a drink for every time I read "Ursan" "Nerf" "Overpowered" "QQ" or see a cat picture. I'll be out of hospital tomorrow night.

[Alazardragoon]

lol every one knows that man. Seriously. Forums - negativity I try to use these forms to ask questions as much as I can since im still a newb to this game. I try to usually ask for builds and advice, Which is what forums are about. I will tell u right now, the only game I have never used the forums in is FFXI, and guess what? That just so happens to be my best MMORPG experience as well...sure I was stressed out of my mind lost for weeks without any idea how to solo Genkai.. but I Got it done. With the help of players. Forums are a good last place to check for advice when your lost.

[Avarre]

Forums are good for raw information and views, as well as occasionally providing actually good ideas, since the majority of the better players frequent at least one.

Company just needs a very good CR team to communicate with the forums, weed out bad suggestions, and present something like a weekly 'forum report' of the general views going around, so that the devs don't have to deal with people and can focus on developing.

I don't play any drinking games while moderating. Perhaps I should.

[IlikeGW]

Forums are a free gold mine for devs, but they need to be flame resistant to get the gold. But seriously look at something like Hellgate, which is a piece of junk and on the verge of extinction today. I never even played that game past the demo which I didn't find very good, but I can know for a fact the devs must have ignored tons of constructive beta advice, and probably ignored their community a lot after launch. Games like that have a very clear pattern of tanking. Not because the playerbase is God and can shut a game down over spilt milk, but because the majority of players only give out advice to be honest and get a hint across to a company.

So I look at it somewhat like this: once upon a time a company wouldn't know if they were about to be in the doghouse and lose their market. Today, they can't say they don't know. The writing will be there on the forums, and though there's hyperbole, it's still there for a reason. That's when you don't put on blinders, but instead ask yourself what they're saying and how you can handle it better. Companies that ignore that are ignoring a "Get out of bankruptcy free" card. Maybe they won't need the card, but maybe they will.

[Makkert]

lol.
no, i don't think Inde plays the game like this.

I <3 Inde.

[RPGmaniac]

Originally Posted by Esan

Occasionally they mash the "Release Gaile Gray" button to lend the support group some trappings of legitimacy

They actually dumped that button in favor of a "Release Regina Buenaobra" button

[Chik N Nuggets]

No.


/12 chars etc etc...

[Lorekeeper]

I think the wrong assumption that is being made in this article and by people's opinions about forums in general is that there arent any posters who can post well thought out, objective views/suggestions about game design.

This is a very ignorant assumption to make. The article is fun, but it achieved that by getting far too engrossed in making fun of the stereotypes that most people already are aware of, as a result the article author forgot to present the other side of the coin. If the author actually believes that no useful posts exist in game forums that I would have to question the intelligence and awareness of the author. The author seems to conclude that forums are only useful as venting outputs for a tiny proportion of the gaming population... its quite a pessimistic and inaccurate conclusion.

Its like saying that a forum about politics is useless because everyone is arguing from their own political standpoint and all you get is perpetual disagreements over hotly contested principles (liberal vs realist for example). Political forums may also be only visited by a certain type of poster and may not give a full representation of the full political spectrum. But that is also a bad assumption to make, its just a generalisation to which exceptions can exist and will exist. Generally the assumption is true, but there are the rare posters who are able to tackle issues from a wider perspective. These posters are able to objectively analyse the issue, and not allow too much of their personal prejudices to tint their arguments.

Its not a skill your average person possesses, being able to discuss things in an objective manner. Some would even claim that no human is able to do so, because we are not rational beings and that we are slaves to our emotions and feelings. I believe that our rational faculties, if developed enough, are able to tackle issues without letting our irrational faculties in the way.

So to apply this thinking to GW forums, and I think I have said this before in other threads, although the vast majority of posts are made by irrational posters there are bound to be the odd posts that include some very good ideas and well thought out arguments that could be interpreted as being good for the game as whole and not just one subset of player that the poster represents. Most posters will post from their particular gaming approach, farmers will complain about changes to the game that effect their farming habits and not care about PvP, PvP players will complain about bad balance updates and not care about PvE (im generalising here to make a point).

But I'm pretty sure I've come across posts made by players who are able to think of ideas that will benefit the whole community, and it is a real shame that they are painted with the same crude brush that the other posters are being painted with. Over the years I have seen some really good ideas floating around Guru forums alone dealing with a whole range of issues. Anet has rarely, if ever, snatched up these ideas. More often than not, I hear certain game devs complain that they just dont have access to valuable feedback... I just dont think they are looking hard enough because its certainly there. Im sure we can all name posters who over the years have posted some brilliant things that we wish the devs had listened to.

So what i would say about game companies hosting their own forums and making them healthy ones is the following:

*recognise that moderation of posts is extremely important

*recognise posters who provide good feedback and healthy discussion and reward them or give them recognition for doing so. Have some kind of poster heirarchy system that is based on the value of their contributions to the forums

*moderators should produce a weekly or fortnightly summary of the most interesting and valuable posts in the forums, and present the summary to the game developers with links to the threads and posts so that they can quickly go to that discussion

*game developers should then participate on those valuable threads or respond directly to valuable posts which will really help to foster the idea that if you post well your ideas will be heard... community liason officers would be the ideal candidate for this. But they should try to give direct quotes from game devs themselves to make it feel more personal or authentic and not just ''PR speak''.

*closer moderation of threads that devs participate in is key... make it clear that bad posts are not wanted because they spoil the flow of the discussion

*allow bad threads to exist, to a certain extent of course because you want those kind of posters to have somewhere to rant.

Solutions to problems are identified by some posters often very quickly after those problems even crop up... but it takes Anet months and months to come up with their own solutions and generally their own solutions tend to miss the point entirely.

I hope that Anet dont take such a pessimistic view on forums like Guru, because quite frankly they would do good to listen to some of the ideas on this forum MUCH more often.

But then again, should they be paying the poster for doing their jobs for them?

And that is the final point I will end on...

maybe some game devs are too proud to admit that people who arent even being paid to make the game have good ideas too.

I think it takes quite a mature dev team to be able to do that... look at bioware forums for example.

[fireflyry]

The fact Anet employees respond on forums is example that yes...they do.

My question therefore would be how much and to what degree.

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

*moderators should produce a weekly or fortnightly summary of the most interesting and valuable posts in the forums, and present the summary to the game developers with links to the threads and posts so that they can quickly go to that discussion

Excuse me?

This is the job of the Community Relations team. Their job is to relate to the community, and act as the messenger from the devs and community. If they aren't doing this, then I have to ask what they're being paid for, and if I had to do it, I'd send them a bill with my summary.

It's not the job of the devs to sift through player responses. It's not the job of the players to summarize it for them. That's why there are people hired who have experience in dealing with the community. Otherwise, what is the point of Gaile and Regina? The devs can spend 5 minutes to make a post about what pretty event they're going to have next and then return to ignoring the forums on their own, they don't need to hire full-time employees to do it.

[Esan]

Originally Posted by Avarre

[W]hat is the point of Gaile and Regina?

Point? Hard to tell, given [[User talk:Linsey Murdock]]. Their function, however, is to provide soft and easy targets, which they fulfil by merely existing.